How Couples Meet In a Performative, Post-Pandemic World

Like Shopping While Hungry: Dating apps—like all social media—exploit our worst impulses, too often leading to frustration and impulsive decisions.

The following is an edited transcript from the Pivot podcast, produced by the Vox Media Network, hosted by esteemed journalist Kara Swisher and NYU professor Scott Galloway. In this segment, Lakshmi Rengarajan, a veteran of the online dating industry, shares her insight on why dating apps do users a disservice. And why a return to old-school social interaction are the best chance at successful and meaningful partnerships.

Kara Swisher: Lakshmi Rengarajan, a Friend of Pivot, co-hosts the Vox podcast, Land of the Giants, about the rise of dating apps. Lakshmi’s work focuses on how to help people connect in real life and how to offset the wariness of online dating. She previously worked at Match.com and at WeWork as Director of Workplace Connection. She joined us to talk about the state of dating and even gave some married people something to think about. 

Kara: Welcome Lakshmi. 

Lakshmi Rengarajan: Can I—wait—can I just do a quick gushing moment? Is that okay? 

Kara: You may gush. Gush away. 

Lakshmi: Kara, I’ve been following you for so many years. Thank you so much for everything you do. I adore all of your work, thank you and Scott. I have to tell you, I discovered you when I was at WeWork. And I was there for the crash and all of that. I just want you to know your content helped me and a lot of other people process what was a really difficult few months. I just wanted you to know that, so thank you. 

Kara: Thank you for saying that. But let me also say you were director of Workplace Connection [at WeWork], which was the idea that you could meet people and socialize and drink, et cetera, et cetera. And then you also worked Match.com, but now you’ve been working on this show Land of the Giants, which focuses on different things. And this time, it’s the dating games. So please give us an overview of the work you’ve done in the field of dating and how you feel about dating culture as it stands today. Or connection culture because that’s what you’re really doing. 

Lakshmi: Sure. So it’s actually like back in 2009, and online dating was already a big thing. It was like before Tinder, but people were dating online and that had started, and I started already noticing the change in people that there was the disposability, the snap judgments. I was doing this project where I had interviewed all of these couples that met at work and almost every couple told me that the person that they were with was not someone that they had liked immediately. That this person had kind of grown on them over time. 

Scott Galloway: A hundred percent. 

Kara: That’s how I feel about Scott. But go ahead. 

Lakshmi: Yeah, exactly. It’s how I think a lot of people feel about Scott. 

Scott: Go on! Let’s see . . . There’s your next co-host. 

Lakshmi: Okay, good. But, so I saw this change in people, like we’re losing this sort of gradual attraction. This thing that happens with people. And I was at this “Lunch and Learn [event]” where I worked, and I had just gone for the free pizza, and there was this guy there that I didn’t notice at all. He could have just been wallpaper to me. And he gave this presentation about sports marketing, and it wasn’t just about sports marketing. It was sort of about his life and how he arrived at this moment. And he had slides, and he told this like really, really important, sweet story. And I remember he started to look different to me. Like, in the course of those 20 minutes, he started to look different to me. And then I was talking to this group of women outside afterwards. And they were like, oh, that was a really good presentation. And then I said, were any of you kind of turned on? And they were like, yes! Yes! Like, what was that? What was that? And it was because this person had sort of been dimensionalized and we were getting context on him, right? So I sort of took note of that. And then, I started experimenting with in-person events and storytelling and slides, and how could I slow down the process of dating but still make it a really efficient and fun experience. And so I did that for several years, and then that’s what caught the attention of Match.com, and that’s how I kind of went there for a while. 

Kara: So, you wanted to fix them, you wanted to get rid of the judgy stuff? Disposability? When you got there, what did you wanna do to fix them?  

Lakshmi: Yeah, I was brought in to try and change their events business and to bring my opinion and what I was learning in the field. There’s a lot of people that report on dating. There’s not as many people who are actually trying to build something different. But I mean, you know, long story short, I don’t know that anyone really wanted to hear from me because I was saying I was hired for those insights. But then when I got there, I ran into a lot of like, well, we’re gonna make this button green instead of blue because green is more engaging. So I don’t even know that people knew what I was saying, quite frankly. 

Scott: So let’s just double click on something: You said that a lot of people over time, at least on initial encounter, weren’t interested and found that they became increasingly interested. It’s very reductive, but I’ve generally found that, you know, guys get turned on with their eyes. Women get turned on with their ears. And what do you do? What do you do when one in three relationships begin at work? And if it requires a certain level of persistence or trying again or expressing interest? First off, you’re told as a man that if you express anything resembling romantic interest at work, you’re a predator and should be fired. And how do you even begin to talk about the reality that sometimes it requires a little bit of persistence? I mean, haven’t we just basically said to the entire mating community that a third of all mating opportunities are going away, and then you rely on online? Everyone has to go online. You can’t, you’re not supposed to meet at work. But haven’t we basically, through certain norms which are justified because of some of the terrible things that have happened in a professional workplace, haven’t we just essentially destroyed a third of the alchemy and points of inspiration for relationships? 

Lakshmi: Yeah, we have. And I’ve heard you talk about this, and I’m with you. And so I don’t feel like I can necessarily comment on workplace romances per se. But I think what you’re pointing at is, whether we like it or not, we have spent decades making work the defacto town square, right? That was one of the few places where you could go and slowly get to know people over time, right? So I think the takeaway is [to] remember that a lot of your coworkers, a lot of your friends, a lot of the people that you would adore were not people that you liked initially. And you got to know them over moments. You got to know them because they cleared your coffee mug [or] because they spoke up in a meeting. And, whether or not I’m not advocating for workplace romances, I think the takeaway is that people unfold over time. And work is one of the few places where people can do that. 

Kara: So how do you not get unfolded online? Because everyone crafts their online persona. And it must impact like what you’re being. I find it all—I’ve never used an online dating service—but they seem performative to me and not real. My son took his [profile] off, he finds them ridiculous. You know what I mean? And then, of course, it’s harder to meet in person as you say. How do you fix the world of online dating? Because that’s where people are doing this now if other venues are not available to them. 

Lakshmi: No, I get it. And, I know that everybody wants advice, or, the way that I like to think about it is rather than advice—because I think when we give people advice, we suggest that there’s a right or a wrong way to do this—what I like to do is give people sort of considerations and think about the pool that you’ve been placed in, which is what we’re doing in Land of the Giants. We’re not blaming the dating industry, but we want you to know the pool that you’ve been placed in and what chemicals are in the water. And, I think that’s where you start. You have been placed in a pool where marketing yourself and standing out is more important than developing the skill of how to get to know other humans, right? So, my advice to people is to remember and be very aware of how dating online has changed you and changed everybody else. 

Kara: What about fixing the apps themselves? 

Lakshmi: Well, I don’t know that anyone will listen to me about fixing the apps. But what I do know is that we need to care about who is building our apps and who’s gonna be building the future of dating. So I tell people [who] wanna know what app to go to, and I’m more, like, I would go look at the founder, right? Because that will tell you a lot about what’s being built and how they, you know, like how they inform their world and the decisions that they make. So, no. Do I think we can fix dating? No. But do I still want to empower people to date differently and date well and be aware, yes. 

Scott: I’ll put forward a thesis. And I would just love to get your response to it and go more meta than just online dating. And that is, women date or mate socioeconomically horizontally and up, and men are horizontally and down. Over 50% of women say they would never date a guy shorter than them. And it’s probably closer to 80%. Because it’s an embarrassing to say thing to say, I wouldn’t date someone shorter than me. And what you have, women, single women, owning more homes than men. You have men maturing later, getting mixed signals about being aggressive and not being as economically viable. My friend Chris Williamson, who has a great podcast, by the way, described it perfectly to me. And he said that for the last three decades, women have been getting taller, and men have been getting shorter. And I hear women, and we all hear this story. And I know a bunch of them. I know all these great women that not only are not mating, they’re not even dating. And it’s not because there aren’t men out there. It’s because we’re not producing enough economically or emotionally viable men. Have you given any thought to big picture solutions, whether it’s through technology or, society, or social programs that can get men growing again? 

Lakshmi: There are a few things I think about more than this. So, there’s a lot to say here. And I know that this is a topic that you care a lot about. And one thing that I hear in your voice, and I’ve heard this several times, is that you are hearing a depth of honesty that not a lot of people get to hear. You’re not just hearing dating frustration. I think you’re hearing some despair. And we have to be very mindful of that. So, as we are talking to people about how to date better and how to find a partner, I think we also have to be really careful not to depict singlehood as this awful deficit and this awful thing. 

Scott: It doesn’t define success or failure. 

Lakshmi: It does not. It does not. Hundred percent. And so I just wanna make sure we’re having both conversations. So, one thing I learned from designing events for such a long time is that men are visual but much more open-minded. 

Scott: They’re less choosy. 

Lakshmi: Well, they have a big range for what they find attractive. But what happens is when they’re on the apps, the most—I mean we’ve heard of this—the most shallow side of them is being cultivated over and over and over. And so the side of them that does have range and doesn’t just look at women for how they look, or how old they are, or their weight, gets suppressed. And then you have the same thing happening with women. I know that the surveys say that women are obsessed with height, and I think that is true in a survey format. If you really talk to women, like really talk to them, and they’re not just responding to a form, they’re not as hung up on that as you might think. They are hung up on that in the moment when they’re asked to make a snap judgment. But the thing that I learned over and over is if you can delay people’s judgment, and that is something that the apps do not let you do, they’re right; they prey on your snap judgment, and that’s where events and in-person is so important. If you can slow the process down, you get a different side of people. And at one of my early events, the first couple that ever got married from one of my events—I love sharing this story because I think it says a lot—the guy was 28, and the woman was 36. And you know, he even told me later, he’s like, yeah, I probably would not have, you know, picked her out. But by the time I got to know her, I was in. She’s amazing. You know? So, that number was not going to deter me. 

Kara: So you’re all talking about in-person things, that these apps, you are never gonna be right because they’re designed for click, click, you know, swipe . . .

Lakshmi: They’re designed for click, click, and they’re designed for speed. They put forth this message of efficiency. And efficiency is a very powerful message for men in particular. They love that idea. But I would argue that this isn’t an efficient way. You’re getting volume, but I would actually say it’s not efficient. 

Scott: It’s not efficient. So I agree with you, especially for women, that society has to stop evaluating their success through the lens of romantic success or not. I would say, though, that I do think it’s actually more important and key to a successful development and maturity. Kara, you talked about both your sons having had girlfriends. I’m really hoping my 15-year-old son gets a girlfriend. I think men without, and it’s increasingly happening, men who do not have relationships by the time they’re 30 literally come off the fucking rails. They don’t have guardrails and don’t develop any social skills. Men fail if they don’t have romantic relationships. I think women who don’t have relationships have much greater social connections, are more aware, more mature, more professionally adept, better at gas on, gas off, saving money.

Kara: So when you’re thinking about, I don’t want tips for setting people up, but you were talking about live events, because there’s not church, there’s not other places . . . 

Lakshmi: I’ll caveat that. So yes, events are great, but most singles events are absolute garbage. So that’s the problem. In the hierarchy of event types, I would say singles events are usually pretty low in terms of quality. The standard has always been just shove a bunch of single people into a bar, give ’em drink tickets and hope that something happens. And so, singles events, rightly, have a bad reputation. So what I was trying to do, and maybe I’ll do this again someday soon, is to elevate that, right? So like, how do you use the environment? How do you use the size of the crowd? How do you use stimulus like you were talking about? People need something other than we are all single as a point of connection. All of those factors need to be into consideration.  

Kara: What are some of the tips you have now? 

Lakshmi: I heard your episode last summer about how people always want you to set them up. 

Kara: Yes, they do. I’m good at it, but I do lying. I set them up via dissembling. But go ahead. 

Lakshmi: Well, here’s what I would say: There’s a couple things to just remember when you’re trying to set someone up. One, never tell them that you’re setting them up. Don’t use that word and never use the word ‘match,’ and never say that you guys are perfect for each other or anything like that. This is the phrase that I like to use, and it’s really simple, but it’s very powerful: I think you guys might get along. That’s it. You, as the person that’s doing the setting up, are kind of out of it. So you don’t feel responsible if it doesn’t work out. You have just created a little container. So the language is really important. You’ve taken the pressure off of it, and then those two people can decide if there’s something more. So just something as simple as I think, you might get along. 

Scott: Yeah, you should meet. Professionally, personally, you should meet. 

Lakshmi: Meet is good. Get along is better. It just pushes, it just pushes the person just a little bit more. And that little bit can make all the difference. The other thing, and this is really important—and I wanna teach you guys this because, Kara, I know people approach you all the time, and I feel like you would crush this. I have this thing that I call a lodge line, and it’s a little tiny thing that you say about the person that you’re trying to set up that kind of lodges into someone’s heart and kind of opens them up a little bit. When people set people up, they tend to talk in these sort of boring, well-meaning but boring platitudes, you know, they’re amazing, they’re wonderful. You’ll adore them. And that doesn’t do anything. It doesn’t help. You wanna give a tiny, tiny line about the other person that evokes a visual and tells you something about their character. So, can I give you a quick example? 

Kara: Sure. 

Lakshmi: The thing that you wanna do—I’ll give an example from this week. So I’m sitting in the studio with Chris, audio engineer at Vox. And I had been telling him for the past couple of weeks I was super nervous about this interview, and then last week I was like, oh man, I just know my computer’s gonna break down. Like the one time I get to talk to Scott Galloway and Kara Swisher, I’m gonna have a tech issue. And he was like, look, I will book a studio. I will sit in the booth with you, and you’re gonna be great, and we’re gonna make this work. So, first of all, Chris is engaged, so sorry he’s off the market, but like you just heard something about him, and it wasn’t super deeply personal. You weren’t telling me what to think about him, but you probably pictured this guy who, like, looked out for somebody and booked a room, and he’s sitting over there, you know, having my back. And that’s the kind of stuff that we need to share about each other. Especially in a world where we’re all getting flattened by our screens. We need to do that little bit of extra work to dimensionalize people when we try and set them up. 

Scott: Yeah. I think what you’re talking about is powerful in this notion of a third place where random encounters, where things like pheromones and humor and body language can play a role when they can’t play a role online. I’m just curious, you got a 19-year-old man and woman in front of you, and what advice would you give them around trying to find or develop good skills that result in good relationships and potentially finding something that turns into a romantic relationship? 

Lakshmi: Okay, so a couple of things. One, I’m gonna do one philosophical thing and then one like very practical thing. First, philosophically, please remember that most of the people that you like and care about were not people that you liked immediately. And you got to know them in moments, right? 

Scott: Yes. The second coffee.

Lakshmi: Well, I’m gonna push back on that for a second. Like, I get being open-minded, but when someone hears that, it actually comes across as a little bit condescending, right? It’s like, oh, you’re doing it wrong. But here’s the thing to remember about your coffee comment is that most dates right now are happening in coffee shops and restaurants, which makes sense. But this is a terrible environment to get to know somebody. I understand why people do it. But if you look at all the dating advice out there, it is all around navigating this very narrow box, right? It’s like, did he pay for the check? Did they order something? Were they nice to the server? And so you’re trying to get to know somebody in this very, very limited context. And so you’re putting so much pressure, it’s like being in a fucking Law and Order episode. Right? So please just keep that in mind. These are not the best ways to get to know people. I understand you have to do it, but don’t try and draw a complete picture about somebody in a box. 

Scott: I just wanna press pause. I couldn’t agree more. I describe every date I had in a restaurant as like controlled boasting. 

Lakshmi: Yes! 

Scott: Me just sitting there trying to be more impressive than I was. 

Lakshmi: Yes, exactly. And that’s what everyone’s doing. So just remember this isn’t like the best environment. The second was, you have to work on getting people to share bits of their story as opposed to their pitch. Because most people are trained to pitch themselves, and you have to get people out of pitch mode. And I’ll give you an example of how people do this inadvertently. So a very common question when people are dating is, what’s your family like? Are you guys close? Right? Sounds like a good question, right? It’s not a good question! First of all, it puts people in this state of being judged. Not everyone identifies with the word family. That is a very privileged word. Not everybody has good associations with family, and you are putting someone on the defensive. But it seems like a good question. Here’s the question I tell people to ask, and it will change the trajectory of your conversation. What was one great thing about your upbringing? 

Scott: Hmmm.

Lakshmi: Okay?

Kara: That’s good. Very different. 

Kara: Nothing. I was beaten daily. 

Lakshmi: There could be a value, but very different. But think about it like, you know, Scott has talked a lot about his upbringing. And I’m going to hear more of that. And everybody has had an upbringing, but not everyone has had a family in the way that we tend to think about family.

Kara: I like that. That’s really good. Really good. 

Lakshmi: And you’re gonna get a great story. 

Kara: Yeah, you don’t have to tell everything. Interesting. My son is meeting different people, and one thing that he’s doing is not telling people that his moms are lesbians, right? And there’s one woman who he likes who’s super anti-gay. And so he’s like, oh, interesting. I said, have you told her? And he’s like, not yet. Not yet. 

Scott: And then he moves on to tell me something wonderful about your upbringing! 

Kara: Right? Anyway, this is so helpful, Lakshmi, we are gonna have you back on again. Thank you so much. You can hear more from Lakshmi on this season of Land of the Giants. Thank you so much. This was delightful.

Scott: Since our chat, Lakshmi has started her own dating podcast called The Later Dater Today, which focuses on dating after the age of 45. I find this stuff fascinating.